Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V09_3/V9_308.TXT

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Date: Thu, 23 Mar 89 05:16:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SPACE Digest V9 #308

SPACE Digest                                      Volume 9 : Issue 308

Today's Topics:
               Re: Black hole trolling
          Re: E'Prime Aerospace Corporation
             Re: Statistics and astrology
           Re: Moronic Television Coverage
             Commercial Spaceport
        Re: NASA Prediction Bulletins:  Space Shuttle
               Re: Black hole trolling
              Re: Cost of USSR launches
                 loft-1 info
       PHOBOS INFO (was NSS Hotline Update for 3/17/89)
               RE: Shuttle Experiments
Re: Discovery's return-to-flight photographs record many firsts (Forwarded)
           Re: Clarity of shuttle pictures
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 89 21:44:27 GMT
From: rti!talos![e-mail]  (Kyle Jones)
Subject: Re: Black hole trolling

[e-mail]:
> The forces that hold a macroscopic object together are electromagnetic.
> They require the exchange of virtual photons between the particles to be
> held together.  When the object extends across the event horizon, the
> photons can no longer go from the atoms inside the black hole to the atoms
> outside.  Thus the tether is neatly sliced.

Scott Henry writes:
> This is incorrect. The definition of the event horizon is the point at
> which photons cannot escape to *infinity*.

No, it is not.  The very name `event horizon' suggests that this definition is
incorrect.  Events occuring within the region enclosed `event horizon' cannot
be observed outside that region.  This implies that no photons within that
region can exit that region.  Stephen Hawking theorizes that some photons can
in fact escape due to fluctuations in the event horizon due to quantum
effects.  But this does not change the basic definition of the event horizon.

kyle jones   <[e-mail]>   ...!uunet!talos!kjones

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 89 22:59:45 GMT
From: mailrus!jarvis.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!utzoo![e-mail]  (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: E'Prime Aerospace Corporation

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Peter Scott) writes:
>Anyone know what happened to MMI and their plans for launching their `Space
>Van' from a floating platform off Pago Pago?

Last I heard they were still around, but the state of their plans I don't
know.  I am not optimistic about them:  their plans steadily got more
ambitious (first a 747 launch, then a new-build launch aircraft, now
a floating platform to start from), which isn't a good sign.  It's all
superficially plausible, but where will they ever get the money?
--
Welcome to Mars!  Your         |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
passport and visa, comrade?    | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 89 00:03:51 GMT
From: att!ihlpl![e-mail]  (Knudsen)
Subject: Re: Statistics and astrology

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (John Roberts) writes:
> In particular, it is plausible to infer that base
> hits, which are of great personal importance to professional players, ought
> to be influenced by the "astrological forces", as shown by correlation with
> some astrological phenomenon, if these forces indeed have considerable

I agree that the study was worthwhile, but it ignored the effect
of astrological forces on a small but important minority of
baseball players for whom it is of great personal importance that
there NOT be base hits, and whose playing skills in fact do
significantly negatively impact the other players' batting performance.

These players are commonly referred to as "pitchers."
If they have a good day when the batters also have a good day,
do the effects cancel out?
--
Mike Knudsen  Bell Labs(AT&T)   att!ihlpl!knudsen
"Anyone can build a conservative design, given liberal resources." -- MJK

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 89 22:50:58 GMT
From: att!alberta!ubc-cs!eric!eric.mpr.ca![e-mail]  (Dennis Rosenauer)
Subject: Re: Moronic Television Coverage



Many people have complained about rotten television coverage of
shuttle missions.  I have also complained about this and gotten
nowhere.  So I simply did a bit of shopping and put together a
TVRO (that is a home television receive earth terminal) and now
I get NASA Select without all the BS.  If one is willing to do
a bit of shopping there are quite a few used satellite TVROs
available now since the pay television operators started
scrambling because nobody wants to pay more for it.  So look
around and with a bit of effort you can have coverage without
all the announcer BS.

So check out the garage sales and the want-ads, I have a 10 foot
antenna on my TVRO and the whole thing cost me $600.  Not bad
considering what people pay for personal computers these days!

---
from sharp minds come ... pointed heads

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 89 19:53:33 GMT
From: att!codas!ablnc![e-mail]  (Robert C. Pilz)
Subject: Commercial Spaceport


I saw yet another article about a commercial spaceport effort in
Florida. There are 3 competitors for this scheme: Military, Other
Countries and Other States. There are 3 feasible sites in Florida:
The abandoned Air Force pads in Brevard County, an abandoned city
of Shiloh - in Brevard and Volusia Counties near Titusville, and
Cape San Blas in the Florida panhandle.
The military is an obvious competitor. Currently, any commercial
launch can be bumped without a moment's notice by a military
launch. So it is important for commercial launch companies
to develop alternate sites for commercial launches.
The second area of competition is other countries. New joint
ventures such as Australia and Japan are teaming up day by day.
The commercial launches in these countries are heavily subsidized
by the governments, making the bid to launch foreign country's
equipment an uphill battle.
The third area of competition is from other states. Hawaii has
two potential sites and Virginia wants to develop an existing
NASA facility on Wallops Island off the southeast coast. Earlier,
California made efforts but has dropped the ball. (This was
due to the "Great Tax Revolt.")
Florida has a lot going for it because of the existing infrastructure.
I think private companies could beat some of the rates charged
for NASA launches. For one thing, a private company would not
have its parts coming from all over (Mass., Utah, Texas, etc.)
more of the parts of the vehicle would come from locally developed
facilities.
There is some opposition to the $10 Million to explore the
Florida Spaceport, the money could be better used for child care,
etc., but that might be too short-sighted. There is the threat
to the fragile Florida ecology; the wild life, water, and air.
Then, again this may create yet another silicon valley explosion.
R. C. Pilz
AT&T IMS
Orlando, FL

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 89 15:17:15 GMT
From: jfcl.dec.com!imokay.dec.com![e-mail]  (Doug Borsom)
Subject: Re: NASA Prediction Bulletins:  Space Shuttle

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (TS Kelso) gives
numbers for the orbit of STS-29:

>STS-29
>1 19882U 89 21  A 89 73.55415843 -.00101560  00000-0 -41670-3 0    87
>2 19882  28.4595 220.3275 0023371 200.1716 159.8216 15.84857645   147

Can someone tell me what orbital attribute each of these numbers
describes or point me to a book that does so?  Thanks.

Disclaimer:  Any ignorance expressed in this message is purely my own.

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 89 05:26:42 GMT
From: tektronix!tekecs![e-mail]  (-for inetd server command)
Subject: Re: Black hole trolling

Arnold Gill writes:
>
>     This is inherently incorrect.  Double-null coordinates on the event
>horizon have a light-cone parallel to the event horizon surface, which
>means that no particle can cross the event horizon itself.
> . . . .
>     The first appender is correct - the tether will be sliced.
>
Then again, since virtual photons violate conservation of energy,
and virtual pions violate conservation of mass, who knows what
might happen when you spin a yo-yo into a black hole?

What I have a little trouble buying is the concept of an expanding
universe.  I have heard that astronomers can determine the distance
of an object by its red-shift.  This is supposedly because the entire
universe is expanding, and the objects with the highest velocity will
thus be farther away.

This all seems to assume that the observed red-shift of distant galaxies
is due to the Doppler effect.  It makes sense to me that a lot could
happen to a photon in 10 billion-odd years to shift its frequency around
a little bit!!  I'd be interested in what the astronomers in the group
have to say about this.

Kendall Auel                   ^ ^
                      /O O\
Tektronix, Inc.                  | V |
Information Display Group        /  """  \
Interactive Technologies Division    / """"" \
([e-mail])         /|\ /|\

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1989 13:21-EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Cost of USSR launches

I have heard anything from $600-$800/lb (full recovery cost) for the
old soviet boosters versus $2000-$5000/lb (and more) for the space
shuttle.

The biggest difference is that the soviet booster, primitive though it
may be, is turned out on an active assembly line. They have been
producing them for decades and have achieved a very high level on the
production learning curve and the economies of stable production and
economies of scale.

Whereas the US launch vehicles are produced either hand made one at a
time or in batch runs of new models with high setup costs.

It really is no wonder they can charge $10M. I would actually not be
surprised if that is their actual cost recovery plus profit figure.
When it comes to space, their government is much better at it than our
government.

But when our private sector finally gets its toe hold, they'll ALL be
left in the dust.

=========================================================================
If man were meant to be governed,        ANARCHY NOW
birth would require a committee            Dale Amon
meeting.
=========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 89 15:43:43 GMT
From: ecsvax![e-mail]  (Jeff Hunnicutt)
Subject: loft-1 info


a while back i recall seeing some discussion of the loft-1
launch from cape canaveral.our machines archives did not contain
the articles on this.can anyone enlighten me on this launch ?
mainly the specs of the rocket,the telemetry involved and whom
was responsible for the idea inception,permission,and construction
of the rocket and launch.any information would be appreciated.



jeff hunnicutt @ university of n.c. wilmington

------------------------------

Date: 21 Mar 89 17:36:46 GMT
From: killer!pollux!ti-csl![e-mail]  (Dane Meyer)
Subject: PHOBOS INFO (was NSS Hotline Update for 3/17/89)

Ken Scofield asked me to post this (he has no access to the net).  He is
very interested in information about Phobos.  Please post any info of
general interest here -- or other nitty gritty can be mailed directly.
Thanks.

Dane Meyer  (Texas Instruments, Dallas)

ARPA/CSnet: [e-mail]
UUCP:       {convex!smu im4u texsun pollux iex rice}!ti-csl!dmeyer

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 >The Soviet space probe Phobos, which is in orbit about Mars, is drawing
 >closer to its destination the moon Phobos.  On April 1 the spacecraft will
 >pass within 150 feet of the lopsided moon and deploy two landers.  One
 >lander will harpoon itself into the surface while the other hops around on
 >the surface.

  ...150 *feet*!!??!!  I had no idea it planned to skim that close.  I'm used
to figures measured in *miles*!  Ok, so here's a question for ya:  How do the
landers decelerate, and/or what is their speed relative to Phobos?  I'm gonna
take a guess here at my own question:  I suppose the orbiter has been
injected into an orbit nearly identical to that of Phobos, only very slightly
closer to the planet (Mars).  This way, it will gradually 'catch up' to
Phobos, because with a slightly smaller orbital radius, the orbital velocity
must be slightly faster.  When the orbiter draws near to Phobos, it will be
captured by Phobos' gravity and caused to orbit Phobos.  The orbital speed
around Phobos is probably tiny (a few tens of miles per hour?), and so the
landers could 'freefall' to the surface with little more than a slightly
bumpy landing.  I'd guess the 'hopper' could almost 'bounce' back into
orbit under the right conditions!  The harpoon, of course, keeps the other
one stuck tight to its target.

  Can anyone tell me what's REALLY going to happen here?

Ken Scofield   Hewlett Packard, Corvallis, Oregon
  ARPA: [e-mail]
  UUCP: {convex rice rudgers ames}!hp-pcd!hpcvic!kas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 89 15:25:21 CST
From: [e-mail] (The unexpected is our normal routine)
Subject: RE: Shuttle Experiments


>With all of NASA's budget cuts and cost overruns doesn't it seem a little(?)
>ridiculous for our astronauts to be WASTING valuable time, and consequently
>money, performing such useless activities as studying chicken egg embryo
>developement and rat leg healing. Grante in the (much) distant future we
>could gain valuable, aplicable, knowledge... but for now don't you think
>this time and money could be used for more practicle, usefull purposes?
>                          Respectfully,
>                          Eric Wallis

Think long term!  What should we do, wait thirty years and break a persons
leg to see how it heals.  Even though I posted a missive which some felt
was critical of basic research (it really wasn't), the sort of experiments
you seem to be knocking are what needs to be done.  We don't have enough
experience in space to be doing anything but building block research.

And while my heaters are on, what sort of research did you have in mind?

Dillon Pyron                         | The opinions are mine, the facts
TI/DSEG Lewisville Computer Services | probably belong to the company.
[e-mail]              |
[phone]                        | Talk is not cheap, run for office.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Mar 89 13:08:18 GMT
From: mcvax!ukc!icdoc!syma![e-mail]  (Andy Clews)
Subject: Re: Discovery's return-to-flight photographs record many firsts (Forwarded)

From article <[e-mail]>, by [e-mail] (Peter E. Yee):

> DISCOVERY'S RETURN-TO-FLIGHT PHOTOGRAPHS RECORD MANY FIRSTS
>

Are such photographs to be published by NASA? Any information as to how one
can obtain them in the UK?

Andy

--
Andy Clews, Computing Service, Univ. of Sussex, Brighton BN1 9QN, UK
JANET: [e-mail]   BITNET: [e-mail]
Voice: [phone] ext.2129

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1989 13:07-EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Clarity of shuttle pictures

>     A lack of recent major volcanic eruptions, which cause dust
> in the upper atmosphere, also may have contributed to the extreme
> clarity.

>     As a result, the STS-26 photographs captured details not
> usually seen in Shuttle photography: for the first time, an
> aircraft was photographed generating a contrail; individual

I wonder if this is really due to clearer air or due to a policy
change. I've been told how back in the 60's security types made sure
that cameras were defocused to prevent it from getting out just how
much could be seen from space. Makes me wonder if it's all just a cover
story so no one has to admit past hanky panky due to top secret
policy...

Interesting that there should be such high clarity despite:

>      It is the largest and thickest accumulation of smoke ever
> photographed by astronauts, much larger than the previous largest
> smoke cloud photographed by astronauts over the same region in
> 1984.

Lets just say that I'm not a trusting soul.

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V9 #308
*******************